Curse

Xenex Xclame · Nov 10, 2009, 02:44 PM // 14:44

Quote:

Originally Posted by Deakon

I don't get it. The only place that I can see having OP skills being an issue is with PvP. OP skills in PvE doesn't give anyone an advantage over anyone else as those same skills are available to EVERYONE who plays.

By your defenition ,if mending was overpowered it wouldn't matter because both teams in a GvG would be able to use it.

So its perfectly fine for us to have a skill that did 3000 damage every second for 5 second to all foes in the area, as long as both sides of the GvG had access to it.

There is not much wrong with OP skills in PvE,before Anet introduced them they were wrong,but since they introduced them,there is nothing wrong with them, we have skills like Eternal Aura,Seed of Life and Summon Spirits to name a few,but it becomes a problem when the skills stop being OP and start being broken.Which guess what?SF is.

Deakon · Nov 10, 2009, 02:48 PM // 14:48

Quote:

Originally Posted by Xenex Xclame

By your defenition ,if mending was overpowered it wouldn't matter because both teams in a GvG would be able to use it.

No... GvG is PvP. Please read my entire post. In PvE, the only ones losing are the monsters and I have yet to hear them complain about the skills I use.

qvtkc · Nov 10, 2009, 03:01 PM // 15:01

Quote:

Originally Posted by Deakon

In PvE, the only ones losing are the monsters

No, you are wrong.

Abedeus · Nov 10, 2009, 03:34 PM // 15:34

Quote:

Originally Posted by Polgara Val

Agree with you, people should seriously stop moaning about SF or 600 smiters, its quite simple ladies and gentleman if you dont like the skills dont use them. If some people enjoy a balanced type of group then find a group of friends and do it, if you like SF and many do, then do so.

Pol

1. Ursan Blessing and people saying "don't like it, don't use it."
2. Be quiet and let the people who care about the state of the game talk. You obviously would be better off with Oblivion, using cheats to get 100000 cash, custom armor with invisibility and running around, killing everything on your way. You know, in single-player game it's acceptable (but then again, what's the point....). This is a MULTIPLAYER game.
3. This is a multiPLAYER game. A MULTIplayer game. Where it's more than just you, who thinks a game is okay like it is.
4. Again, Ursan Blessing and people saying "they'll never nerf it". And they nerfed it. It took over a year, but they finally nerfed it - anyone who wants to use it, will use it probably solo or as a support DPS. It just no longer compresses DPS, tank and running builds into a single elite skill. Then again, SF combines "Avoids all attacks", "Cancells all directed enemy spells" and "permanent" into one skill, which doesn't even require much skill to use in the first place. In any game, any MMO, any RPG, a spell that combines at least two of those things is overpowered. So what that you deal 33% damage less? People around you don't. And degen is still working, so are buffs and Sliver Armor + Ebon Standard.

Quote:

Originally Posted by lutz

Update - Tuesday, November 10th, 2009

All PvE skills have been changed to their respective PvP versions, and PvE-only skills have been removed from the game.

Stop playing with my emotions.

Reformed · Nov 10, 2009, 03:53 PM // 15:53

Quote:

Originally Posted by Abedeus

Ursan Blessing and people saying "don't like it, don't use it."

You can't compare UB and SF. UB got so widespread that outside of very remote places you could find at least 1 lfg for a vanquish or mission. That actually did have a serious effect on the multiplayer aspect of the game. As for the rest...well it seems to imply only the anti-SF crowd has any real concept of what is best for the game. It's possible to be neutral here or even an advocate and still have a relevant opinion. I mean, this is a multiplayer game...right?

As for the original topic...the UWSC that everyone around here seemed to hate so much is gone besides particularly skilled groups. TotA is forming a steady supply of FoWSC or 600/smite UW farm teams and outside of a vale team advertising in vain I've seen next to nothing. Meanwhile ectoplasm has skyrocketed due to speculation and lack of activity (in spite of huge player stored reserves). Yep, everyone sure is better off with 16-18/100 ecto

qvtkc · Nov 10, 2009, 04:20 PM // 16:20

Quote:

Originally Posted by Reformed

You can't compare UB and SF. UB got so widespread that outside of very remote places you could find at least 1 lfg for a vanquish or mission. That actually did have a serious effect on the multiplayer aspect of the game. As for the rest...well it seems to imply only the anti-SF crowd has any real concept of what is best for the game. It's possible to be neutral here or even an advocate and still have a relevant opinion. I mean, this is a multiplayer game...right?

What
* On every runnable mission, when it comes up for its Zaishen quest, you can find runners for it. And they use SF.
* For every dungeon, you can find a runner. Using SF (well, a lot of them do).

To paraphrase... you: That actually has a serious effect on the multiplayer aspect of the game.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Reformed

Meanwhile ectoplasm has skyrocketed due to speculation and lack of activity (in spite of huge player stored reserves). Yep, everyone sure is better off with 16-18/100 ecto

No please dear god let it not be true what shall we do, ecto is at 6.5k

Reformed · Nov 10, 2009, 04:25 PM // 16:25

Quote:

Originally Posted by qvtkc

What
* On every runnable mission, when it comes up for its Zaishen quest, you can find runners for it. And they use SF.
* For every dungeon, you can find a runner. Using SF (well, a lot of them do).

To paraphrase... you: That actually has a serious effect on the multiplayer aspect of the game.

No please dear god let it not be true what shall we do, ecto is at 6.5k

So? There is a market for running ZQuests and Dungeons whoop de doo. There are a lot of lazy or otherwise unmotivated players out there who don't feel like repeating content for the 10th time. It's also a reflection of how unmotivated some PvE players are to farm PvP for their ZCoins which is far more efficient.

Nice attempt at a troll too bro...thing is like a few other folks around here I got it in my head to move money into asian minis way back when. Small fluctuations in ecto prices don't mean anything to me it's really just an inconvenience when I want to move around the ~2.2 mil I made farming over Halloween.

qvtkc · Nov 10, 2009, 04:40 PM // 16:40

Quote:

Originally Posted by Reformed

So? There is a market for running ZQuests and Dungeons whoop de doo. There are a lot of lazy or otherwise unmotivated players out there who don't feel like repeating content for the 10th time. It's also a reflection of how unmotivated some PvE players are to farm PvP for their ZCoins which is far more efficient.

I know. The ease with which said content can be played through, by a single character no less, has devalued it to the point that people don't even want to play it, they rather pay someone else to do it for them. You agree with me, then; and I also wish to add that this devaluation of content needs to end.
Note that missions that can't be run are played just as much, but this time in actual teams.

Regarding PvP, I believe that it has less to do with motivation and more to do with expected returns; most PvE players suck horribly at PvP and would lose far more than they'd win.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Reformed

Nice attempt at a troll too bro...thing is like a few other folks around here I got it in my head to move money into asian minis way back when. Small fluctuations in ecto prices don't mean anything to me it's really just an inconvenience when I want to move around the ~2.2 mil I made farming over Halloween.

I'm sure you are financially independent in-game, don't worry. Oh, wait, so is everyone else, since the in-game economy is totally meaningless and without effect on the actual gameplay.
No matter how much I myself stand to gain or lose, I value decent gameplay over imaginary gold.

X Dr Pepper X · Nov 10, 2009, 05:30 PM // 17:30

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stop The Storm

i love people that cry about shadow form, but confess to never using the skill.... well, i dont like mcdonalds, so i dont go in and complain about the salt content in the fries.

see where im going?

if you dont like the skill... dont use it. simples.

The problem with your analogy is that it does affect everybody else who does not like SF, or SC in general. It affects the in game economy and the player base. Not every profession gets an equal chance at elite areas and in pve in general. It doesnt help that people seem to want only Sins, Warriors, Necros and Monks to SC everything where GW was designed to incorporate nearly infinite balanced and varying playstyles.

Your analogy more over applies to a monopoly. Do UWSC or be penalized by difficulty finding a team, making less money, finishing it slowly, not being able to do it at all. You cant honestly believe that UWSC is an isolated problem that doesnt have any spillover effects in GW because thats just foolish.

coil · Nov 10, 2009, 07:15 PM // 19:15

Quote:

Originally Posted by qvtkc

I know. The ease with which said content can be played through, by a single character no less, has devalued it to the point that people don't even want to play it, they rather pay someone else to do it for them. You agree with me, then; and I also wish to add that this devaluation of content needs to end.
Note that missions that can't be run are played just as much, but this time in actual teams.

sorry, if i'm running my 3rd or 6th char through NF i'm wanting to do it as fast as possible. I got the lore on the 1st go, i enjoyed the graphics/challenge on the 2nd go and now i just want to get it done.why people like you complain about the way other people, like me, choose to play a game is something i'll never understand.

Quote:

Originally Posted by qvtkc

I'm sure you are financially independent in-game, don't worry. Oh, wait, so is everyone else, since the in-game economy is totally meaningless and without effect on the actual gameplay.
No matter how much I myself stand to gain or lose, I value decent gameplay over imaginary gold.

.

again, if you aren't crying about cheaper ectos (which do have their affect on gameplay), then what's the big deal? no one is forcing you to use any skills or group with ANYONE. if you hate everyone else, use your heroes. i fail to see how any other player using any skill they choose to has anything to do with your experience of "Decent gameplay".

Quote:

Originally Posted by X Dr Pepper X

The problem with your analogy is that it does affect everybody else who does not like SF, or SC in general. It affects the in game economy and the player base. Not every profession gets an equal chance at elite areas and in pve in general. It doesnt help that people seem to want only Sins, Warriors, Necros and Monks to SC everything where GW was designed to incorporate nearly infinite balanced and varying playstyles.

Your analogy more over applies to a monopoly. Do UWSC or be penalized by difficulty finding a team, making less money, finishing it slowly, not being able to do it at all. You cant honestly believe that UWSC is an isolated problem that doesnt have any spillover effects in GW because thats just foolish.

that's not true and i'm sure you know it being in a high end guild. i've completed uw on all but 1 of my ascended chars as vale support with friends. ANY char could have done uw under uwsc. it would have taken friends or a guild to accept them but it was still 100% possible. even for fow you can have 1 or 2 slots that can be slightly altered to alot for an awkward primary profession. the only place i'd see you having some difficulty would be doa, but that's still possible...would just take some convincing of guildies. if you look at any of the SC builds close enough you can find slight alterations that will still work to get your char credit for accomplishment. and yes, your char may not be as welcome in future runs since you already have a statue and it may be speedier with another primary...but that's the meta....a complete different subject. and even then, no one is forcing you to play the meta.

Golgotha · Nov 11, 2009, 12:16 AM // 00:16

Quote:

Originally Posted by X Dr Pepper X

1. Monsters are broken. Physical monsters in elite areas hit too hard to manage balancedway. Nuker mobs and attributes for monsters are OP 200+ AoE is imba. Monk monsters heal for too much to manage with steady stream of dmg from balanced team.

2. Design of entire elite area is poor. Non linear elite areas with bugged and static, predictable objectives. Same monster mobs with predictable skills, behaviors, and patrol patterns.

3. Invent gimmick. Ursan Blessing, Imbagon, 55/600 Smite duo, Shadowform. Pick your poison. Classes vamped for pvp (Mesmer, Sin, Rit) and poorly designed(Para, Derv) get little to no love except select gimmick builds that can be generically applied to almost any area due to the sheer intensity of how broken the build is (SF, Spirit spam, Imba)

4. Use unique properties of gimmick to abuse the design of an elite area and clear easily with little skill, thought, and time put into efforts. Buy consumables to make it even easier. Propagate bullshit amongst peers.

SF, OF, and SB are only the third step needed to abuse an elite area where nerfing them is the quickest easiest solution that does not address the core problem underlying speed clears.

Linear pathways thru elite areas should make it take longer even if a gimmick is used, reducing the need of a gimmick build. Mobs and monsters need to adjusted accordingly to promote balanced gameplay where each and every profession has an equal chance to participate in an elite area. Since these monsters are broken the need for a gimmick arises and takes priority over a balanced group. (How else to deal with a group of 10+ lvl 30 monsters pumping out 100-300 dmg each each couple of seconds w/o something that is also broken?)

Realistically UW, FoW, Deep, Urgoz should take 1-2 hours gimmick or balanced. DoA and slavers should take 3-5 hours but are able to be completed piece wise and progressively with rewards from chests and drops scaled accordingly.

There are more important things to do before a nerf to SF, OF, and SB are applied, and various nerfs to SF, OF, SB need to be applied. Anet just now realizes that due to pvp classes have been terrible in pve and are adjusting with pve/vp splits. However, that cannot apply to all classes where Sin, Mes, and Rit are very pvp oriented due to the lack of defense, AoE, and durability in pve or being outshined by other professions.
Dervish and paragons are excellent at what they do but are only used for very select builds to the point where nothing else becomes effective. They both need deep class reform.

Consumables only increase the problem allowing gimmicks to become more effective and even easier to pull off with the chance of failure being reduced.

So nerfing skills is not even the tip of the iceberg with so many issues at bay. Anet ignoring GW1 for GW2 doesnt help either b/c they figure GW1 is so broken they cannot continue with the same game.

Long winded amirite?

This was a very good post. Unfortunate it was ignored in another blood-thirsty SF bash-fest.

reaper with no name · Nov 11, 2009, 01:48 AM // 01:48

We've all known this for a long time. Thing is, we also realize that Anet is never going to go to the trouble of re-designing these areas. So, the best we can hope for is for them to fix the overpowered crap.

Of course, fixing the areas wouldn't mean jack if SF was still around, so no matter what you do it needs to be fixed.

Sora267 · Nov 11, 2009, 02:01 AM // 02:01

Just a random collection of thoughts I had while skimming this thread:

Disclaimer: I am in no way, shape, or form condoning the use of Shadow Form.
1) SF is not the only way to complete the UW.
2) There are so many players who think they're amazing at this game and are against the use of SF. Certainly more than enough that if you wanted to, you could all get together and play through the UW normally. It is a forum, after all. Be semi-social.
3) I've seen many people say that they're in it for the good gameplay, not the gold. Taking into consideration my previous thought and how active some GWG players seem to be, it shouldn't be hard at all to create a group of like-minded players to complete UW the "fun" way "for the sake of gameplay." Unless you're all lying and actually care about the gold, nothing is being taken away from you through other players' use of SF. Grow up, quit acting self-righteous and expecting everything to be handed to you on a silver platter, and make some use of your available player resources.
4) Even if SF is hurting your ability to join PuGs, many of the people I've talked to who have complained about SF are the same people who've complained to me about how bad PuGs were long before SF was originally buffed. Many of you wouldn't have gone through an elite area with PuGs even with god mode skills, let alone normally.

In short, if all of the QQers really are as concerned about the quality of their personal gameplay as they seem, they'd use their available resources to enjoy themselves and not try to impose their own ideals on people who want to rush through these areas.

Caligo · Nov 11, 2009, 02:36 AM // 02:36

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sora of the Divine

Just a random collection of thoughts I had while skimming this thread:

Disclaimer: I am in no way, shape, or form condoning the use of Shadow Form.
1) SF is not the only way to complete the UW.
2) There are so many players who think they're amazing at this game and are against the use of SF. Certainly more than enough that if you wanted to, you could all get together and play through the UW normally. It is a forum, after all. Be semi-social.
3) I've seen many people say that they're in it for the good gameplay, not the gold. Taking into consideration my previous thought and how active some GWG players seem to be, it shouldn't be hard at all to create a group of like-minded players to complete UW the "fun" way "for the sake of gameplay." Unless you're all lying and actually care about the gold, nothing is being taken away from you through other players' use of SF. Grow up, quit acting self-righteous and expecting everything to be handed to you on a silver platter, and make some use of your available player resources.
4) Even if SF is hurting your ability to join PuGs, many of the people I've talked to who have complained about SF are the same people who've complained to me about how bad PuGs were long before SF was originally buffed. Many of you wouldn't have gone through an elite area with PuGs even with god mode skills, let alone normally.

In short, if all of the QQers really are as concerned about the quality of their personal gameplay as they seem, they'd use their available resources to enjoy themselves and not try to impose their own ideals on people who want to rush through these areas.

Amen! Amen! AMEN! Nice summary.

The Drunkard · Nov 11, 2009, 04:15 AM // 04:15

Quote:

Originally Posted by kazjun

You're wrong here. People pug because its quick and hard to fail. You change it so that it takes 2 hours and plenty of places they can die and waste all of their time and people will pug less not more.

You take away the set build that any idiot could run, then you're going to insist that they run the builds you ping and that they do well first time through or you just won't take them again. Eventually, you'd end up only going with friends or guildies and only the guys that have no guild or enough friends will pug. This will only happen quicker if you make the run take longer. No one nowadays wants to spend 2 hours doing a zone to fail at the last quest and get booted. Hell, no wants to spend 2 hours in a zone full stop unless theres some awesome reward.

Don't believe me? Look at DOA. Only full guilds do runs there nowadays that don't use the 600/smite/SF route. Pugs were full there when it was ursan cause you could take anybody and it was quick. Nowadays, no one pugs unless their guild can't come and must don't pug at all cause non-invinci builds either fail massively or take too long. Kill SF/600 smite and DOA really will become dead zones as will most dungeons.

FOW and UW shouldn't be as badly affected cause they aren't that hard and there's always chances for ectos and shards as well as the end chest. Most dungeons only got endchests, and only a few dungeon's endchests drop anything worth while. Nerf SF and all the other 'invinci' builds you want, just don't be under the delusion that this will suddenly make people pug more. Doing two hours with friends or guildies, cool. And if you fail, you can rib them for the next couple of runs. Doing two hours with people you don't know and could be complete idiots, all the time waiting to see where they're going to fail? No thanks.

To start off, I had many good experiences with PUGs before NF and the favor update. Why? Since America could never win in halls, a pug would actually plan out what they were going to do before entering FoW or UW, so that we wouldn't get kicked for doing something stupid and have to wait ~5hours to get another chance to get in. The PUGs of today are much different; people grab a group and run their specific spot and minimize the time for clears. There's really no planning involved since everyone has a specified role. People don't want to pug because it's less of a hassle and easier to SC. If invincibility was nerfed, guilds would actually have to run "balanced" builds if they want to continue farming for the item. There wouldn't be a surge in pugs even if all of the monsters started dropping ectos because people are bored with the areas as it is.

Elite areas SHOULD take more than an hour because they are supposed to be HARD- you are also rewarded with rare drops. The problem is is that this game is stale, and people have done the areas multiple times. They are tired of doing the same dungeon for a chance to get a rare item that will be useless when GW2 comes out, so they resort to SCs and dungeon runs that completly bypass the challenge of the areas. People don't want to play the areas anymore, they just want the fancy items.

DoA was a result of all the broken skills that Anet decided to keep in their game- it's no wonder why it's so unpopular. Fighting mobs that are 8 levels above you and have twice the size of your party isn't really appealing to the holy trinity. DoA will never be fixed since anet seems to have better things to do, so I really don't care if it becomes a dust town.

The least anet could do is make sure that the invincible skills aren't implemented in GW2, so that they would actually have to balance their AI instead of increasing numbers.

UnChosen · Nov 11, 2009, 06:24 AM // 06:24

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chocobo1

The problem is that areas such as these (UW, FoW) are incredibly hard and long to do without some form of gimmick (Shadow Form, SpellBreaker). If you have ever tried UW without using a gimmick (eg going "balanced"), you would know that it takes several hours to complete. It's unprofitable, and would scare away most people from even attempting it, rendering the area another dead zone.

Believe me, I believe more than anyone that there should be no skills that give you invunerability, but the sad fact is that many PvE areas are so poorly designed (see: Domain of Anguish) that these skills are actually essentital to being able to complete these areas in a reasonable amount of time. I do not think ~10-20 minutes for an elite area is "reasonable" but I also don't think 4+ hours on it is fair either.

Fact of the matter is, if you want to change these skills you are also going to have to change these areas. Which is why I believe Anet hasn't nerfed skills such as Shadow Form already.

QFT. The last time I finished UW with an average "balanced" pug all I got was 3 ectos and a bag of junk of ~2k, for a total of ~15k...since it took 3 hours to complete (including ~30min of weeding out/correct obvious failure builds, ~15min of instant failures by clueless casters tanking aataxes, and at least 15min of of "washroom breaks" "mom calls" "lag") the reward only came out to be 5k per hour. Keep in mind this is a SUCESSFUL one time pug, who knows how much per hour when I take into account all the utter failure non-SC pugs..

I get more by feather farming in faction NEWBIE AREA (at least 10k/hr). Same with raptor farm and probably countless other solo farm. Hell I don't even need to farm, all I need to do is to do random Z quest with other stuff and I would earn the same or more. Also with PvP Z quest I earn far in excess of what I get with balanced UW groups (Quest Reward + Faction Zkeys + Coins to trade in for saleable stuff). I can also run people....I got more in "donations" from easy drok runs than from UW. Or I can just vanquish areas with 300-400 foes and get 1.5k of vanquish reward every 30min for a grand total of 3k + ~2k worth of junk loot + amber/jade money (I have max faction title)...surprise surprise ~5k/hr

At the end those areas are not worth it to do unless you want to get FoW armor. It seems like all Anet did when designing the reward for end game areas is to just multiply the reward based on how much longer it takes to do with an average successful group, without taking into considering that the difficulty cause most to fail and adjust accordingly. Ya, they did put rare items into the end chest....but the chance of getting one is so small by the time you get the jackpot GW2 is out.

Quote:

Originally Posted by qvtkc

What are you smoking bro

FoW HM takes about an hour to clear using a balanced setup. UW as long as everyone knows what to do (mostly: don't take quests randomly) is rather easy except for two or even one of the quests. To call these areas "incredibly hard" is just wrong and incorrect.

Even if it only take 1.5 hr to complete UW the reward still doesn't stand up to nearly any decent solo farm.

Trub · Nov 11, 2009, 07:21 AM // 07:21

Quote:

Even if it only take 1.5 hr to complete UW the reward still doesn't stand up to nearly any decent solo farm.

That is the problem.
The short period of time, without a team to share the rewards....is not acceptable in an online game.
A single player game...maybe, but not a team oriented game by design.
And skelly's aren't that difficult.

Improvavel · Nov 11, 2009, 07:33 AM // 07:33

Really, it doesn't matter.

GW is a tremendous good game, with quite a fresh system, where you need to rely on team performing different roles, where self-heals can go kiss a certain place and there are no crappy potions to made up, etc,etc.

Somewhere, Anet got lost.

In some cases Anet was afraid to break conventions, in other went to far.

GW started as a game where the Hardcore players and the occasional players shared the same world in an almost perfect way. Then, Anet caved-in, and created areas for hardcore players that simply destroyed/disregarded GW mechanics and favored gimmicks and exploits.

Then, incredibly, Anet decided to favor players with only 1 Character!!!!!

In a game where one of the most time consuming and crucial aspects is Building a Team with different Professions Character, Anet did this!

Anet can nerf this, change that, revert whatever... It will never really fix this game.

Too much is broken. Any changes will piss someone. Lack of changes will piss the rest.

Lets GW2 role, and hope Anet learned with their mistakes and success and don't take the easy way of destroying the beautiful complexity on such a simple system, to make this game more "WoW'ish".

DreamWind · Nov 11, 2009, 07:39 AM // 07:39

I am tired of this topic. All the strong objective posts and solid evidence in the world aren't helping people. Let us make this simple...if you think things are fine the way they are now you are wrong. That is a fact. If you think ANet should do something you are right. That is a fact. Lastly, if you say "don't like it don't use it" you are an idiot. Hows that for objective?

qvtkc · Nov 11, 2009, 10:48 AM // 10:48

Quote:

Originally Posted by coil

sorry, if i'm running my 3rd or 6th char through NF i'm wanting to do it as fast as possible. I got the lore on the 1st go, i enjoyed the graphics/challenge on the 2nd go and now i just want to get it done.why people like you complain about the way other people, like me, choose to play a game is something i'll never understand.

I don't complain about that. Obviously you didn't read my post.

Tell me, as you obviously don't like the game (what with wanting to get through it "as fast as possible") and all that, why do you play it?

Quote:

Originally Posted by coil

i fail to see how any other player using any skill they choose to has anything to do with your experience of "Decent gameplay".

See: The entire Ursan Blessing debate.

And how does the price of ecto affect gameplay in any way whatsoever??